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#sugar-meeting, 2018-05-09

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02:31 walterbender hi
02:31 a-ritwik Hi
02:31 walterbender #start-meeting
02:31 meeting Meeting started Wed May  9 02:31:29 2018 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
02:31 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
02:32 walterbender pikurasa, I think I fixed the bug with the cursor not tracking (#1130)
02:32 so all of the interactive demos should be much more stable :)
02:32 pikurasa yes, I see that.
02:32 walterbender pikurasa, what time are you in court tomorrow?
02:33 has a meeting in Cambridge from 8-8:45am
02:33 pikurasa I tried one of the examples and it worked well the first time. However, the second time it was very slow
02:33 walterbender: They moved the date again
02:33 walterbender pikurasa, hmmm... did you try refreshing the browser?
02:33 pikurasa So I can meet anytime, anywhere
02:34 walterbender I thought you had to be in West Newton
02:34 pikurasa They moved the court date yet again
02:35 walterbender Maybe Cambridge? At 9am?
02:35 a-ritwik, sorry about this banter
02:35 pikurasa Where in Cambridge?
02:35 walterbender Kendall Sq?
02:35 a-ritwik its fine
02:35 walterbender a-ritwik, can you give a quick update?
02:35 pikurasa Sure. I can meet at your office at 9
02:36 walterbender pikurasa, OK
02:36 a-ritwik I tried understanding code for pitch time matrix
02:37 walterbender a-ritwik, it is a bit convoluted
02:37 prob. the most complicated widget
02:37 a-ritwik also now using a better IDE for faster debugging.
02:37 walterbender (except perhaps the timbre widget)
02:37 a-ritwik, the trick bits involve trying to restore the state
02:37 a-ritwik should I start from some easier widget?
02:38 walterbender yes... I'd suggest tackling the rhythm ruler to start
02:38 a-ritwik okay
02:38 walterbender maybe first just confirm that the open issues are still valid
02:39 then jump in. I don't think any of them are too complicated
02:39 relatively speaking
02:39 a-ritwik okay, I will check and comment on the issues.
02:39 pikurasa a-ritwik: Rhythm Ruler probably still has many issues to be discovered (and fixed).
02:39 a-ritwik also I see one pending pull request, I will  fix it by today.
02:40 walterbender a-ritwik, OK
02:40 pikurasa a-ritwik: +1
02:40 walterbender a-ritwik, there is lots to do in cleaning up the lilypond code...
02:41 it is pretty brittle... not my finest moment as a programmer
02:41 a-ritwik yeah, many arrays are defined but are not needed that much.
02:42 walterbender feel free to clean things up as you fix bugs
02:43 a-ritwik pikurasa, I will try Rhythm ruler
02:43 walterbender a-ritwik, ping me with any questions you may have.
02:43 pikurasa a-ritwik: Please let us know if you have any questions.
02:44 walterbender If I don't respond on IRC, ping me on gmail and I will join you here
02:44 a-ritwik fine
02:45 does the project's timeline needs a change?
02:45 walterbender not yet... let's get into it to get a sense of the pace and scale of the problems..
02:45 we can revisit the timeline next week
02:48 riyalohia_ <riyalohia_!6acfb0f5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.106.207.176.245> has joined #sugar-meeting
02:48 a-ritwik okay, I will ask for help when needed.
02:49 walterbender hi riyalohia_
02:49 riyalohia_ walterbender, hii!
02:50 pikurasa a-ritwik: regular communication is critical. Feel free to send communication anytime.
02:50 riyalohia_: hello!
02:50 riyalohia_ pikurasa, hii!
02:53 Sachiko <Sachiko!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
02:53 riyalohia_ Sachiko, hii!
02:53 pikurasa Hi Sachiko!
02:55 walterbender everyone is here
02:55 pikurasa Sachiko: is everything working for you?
02:56 walterbender Sachiko, any comments about the widgets?
02:56 pikurasa Sachiko: 大丈夫ですか?
02:56 walterbender a-ritwik was going to start by reviewing the rhythm-ruler widget
02:56 not sure if you have ever tried it
02:57 Sachiko Hello! Can you see my comment?
02:57 pikurasa Sachiko: yes
02:57 :)
02:57 Sachiko: IRCへようこそ
02:57 Sachiko Sorry that I was late in joining this! (This is my first success to join this!:)
02:58 pikurasa Sachiko: no problem
02:59 walterbender welcome to IRC (old-school chat)
02:59 Sachiko So, a-rikwik would try to start with reviewing the rhythm-ruler widget to see how he(she?) could improve it? (debugging, etc.)
02:59 walterbender that is the plan
02:59 pikurasa yes Sachiko
03:01 riyalohia_: I just added comments to your latest proposal draft
03:02 riyalohia_ pikurasa : I just saw them, I will make the changes according to your comments.
03:04 pikurasa We should probably have something simple (even simpler than the graph) to input and visualize the pitch-space
03:04 Perhaps a circle.
03:05 The graph would still be present, but the circle would help one identify the pitches within an octave, visually
03:06 riyalohia_ pikurasa, do you want me to change the temperament widget design ?
03:06 pikurasa I imagine lines that mark proportionally the relationship between the pitches (the visual distance would be equal to [logarithmic] pitch distance)
03:06 riyalohia_: you do not need to change much, just add
03:07 add a circle
03:07 looks for my creations...
03:08 Sachiko pikurasa, are you meaning the circle of the 5th? or the circle which has do do # re ... in this order?
03:08 pikurasa never mind finding my own for now. Something like this: http://openmusictheory.com/Gra[…]h-class-Space.jpg
03:08 Sachiko: not circle of fifths... in chromatic order
03:09 so that one can see the tuning relationships
03:09 I found that image here: http://openmusictheory.com/mod12.html
03:09 riyalohia_ pikurasa, this circle would be a part of widget ?
03:09 pikurasa riyalohia_: yes, output, like the graph
03:10 walterbender pikurasa, I imagine that as the mouse hovers over a circle, the data for that entry is displayed?
03:10 pikurasa walterbender: in hertz?
03:11 walterbender maybe in several different formats
03:11 hertz, the ratio if available...
03:12 different entries from the table
03:12 pikurasa hmmm... there could be a "free-form" (hertz) and computational (ratio or other calculation method).
03:12 somewhat similar to what we have for pitch staircase...
03:12 riyalohia_ pikurasa, so when user clicks on the temperament block, widget appears along with the circle?
03:12 Sachiko I see. Is it to be drawn according to the "cent" (one circle = 1200 cent) to see the difference of the scales? (temperament, Pythagorian, intonation...) or just a simple one with 12 points, the length between the 2 points of which are all equal? (sorry for my bad English...)
03:12 pikurasa riyalohia_: are you familiar with pitch staircase?
03:13 riyalohia_: *the pitch staircase widget for MB
03:13 riyalohia_ pikurasa, yes!
03:14 pikurasa Sachiko: it would have 12 points when a 12 pitch system is selected
03:14 Sachiko: but could have (almost) any number (up to a limit, I suppose)
03:14 walterbender Sachiko, maybe we can drag the points on the circle as one way of adjusting the numbers
03:14 Sachiko so the length between 2 points could be different according to the pitch system?
03:15 pikurasa (some kids try to break the program by putting millions into these widgets) :p
03:15 walterbender Sachiko, I think that would be nice
03:16 pikurasa Sachiko: yes
03:16 Sachiko: and could be altered, if desired
03:16 walterbender In the picture Devin shared, it would be equal temperament since it is equal spacing
03:16 pikurasa Sachiko: did you see riya's proposal?
03:16 walterbender but it could be changed
03:17 Sachiko Thanks! If we could "see" the difference of the scales by how 12 points are put on the circle, that would be nice, I think...
03:17 pikurasa and could be changed arbitrarily or by a calculation (e.g. ratio)
03:17 walterbender yes
03:17 Sachiko Pikurasa, yes! I saw that.
03:18 pikurasa Sachiko: +1
03:18 walterbender Sachiko, in IRC world, +1 means, "I agree"
03:19 pikurasa it's similar to "a like"
03:19 and probably why Google called their social network service "Google Plus"...
03:19 Sachiko Oh, I see!
03:20 pikurasa riyalohia_: does this sound okay to you?
03:20 I just thought it needed something to make it a little less abstract
03:20 riyalohia_ pikurasa, walterbender : when will the circle appear (I'm still confused)
03:21 walterbender riyalohia_, I image that it is always present, along with the table
03:21 and that you can edit in either place
03:22 pikurasa riyalohia_: I suppose when you click on the temperament (widget) block (similar to the other widgets)
03:22 walterbender riyalohia_, always present in the widget
03:22 pikurasa I suppose that would be this image under "implementation in your proposal
03:22 *"implementation"
03:23 and, yes, always present
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03:23 walterbender riyalohia_, have you played with the mode widget?
03:23 pikurasa it basically has the same info as the graph, but is a different representation of the information
03:23 riyalohia_ I got it!
03:24 walterbender Sachiko, have you seen the mode widget?
03:24 riyalohia_ walterbender ,no!
03:24 walterbender check it out... it also has a circle, but just done as an HTML table
03:25 but it has some similarities
03:25 pikurasa https://github.com/sugarlabs/m[…]#44-musical-modes
03:26 Sachiko I think I am now checking this...:) Everything on my PC is translated into Japanese... but I think mode widget is "調の設定". RIght? > pikurasa
03:26 riyalohia_ walterbender, pikurasa: the widget table already has too many entries, maybe we can add an auto scroll to make the circle visible?
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03:27 pikurasa the temperament circle would need to be like a "high definition" version of the current mode widget
03:27 walterbender I think the table is less useful as a UI element
03:28 I suspect that the circle would be where the use would work and then call up the table as one form of reviewing
03:28 pikurasa some of the same info could be "tooltips" when hovering over the circle
03:29 walterbender: yes!
03:29 walterbender so the UI is the circle and one alternative visualization is the table and the output is blocks
03:29 and the blocks are used to change the internal table used to drive the synth
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03:30 walterbender make sense?
03:30 Sachiko, http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]etings/2018-05-09 has what you missed while you were disconnected
03:32 riyalohia_ walterbender , pikurasa, maybe we can add an extra button in the widget itself, the circle will appear by clicking on that button.?
03:32 walterbender riyalohia_, sure...
03:32 but maybe the button toggles between the circle and the table>
03:32 riyalohia_ walterbender , +1
03:33 walterbender I suspect that most people will want to default to the circle
03:33 pikurasa Sachiko: "Mode Widget" is カスタム音階...at least in the version on https://musicblocks.sugarlabs.org/
03:33 riyalohia_ I'll change my design proposal according to the circle.
03:34 pikurasa and Set Mode is 調の設定
03:34 which I am sure is weird. :p
03:34 walterbender "�怒�踴��喲�"
03:34 is custom mode
03:34 pikurasa walterbender: ??
03:34 walterbender oops... encoding bug
03:34 one sec
03:35 pikurasa what I typed matches what I see...
03:35 walterbender カスタム音階
03:36 Sachiko Thank you Walter and Pikurasa. But... sorry to say this, but personally, if I could see the ratio and numbers in the table, that would be also quite easy to understand... Or "cent" would be written next to the point in the circle? Can I set that by putting the number? (not just dragging the point)
03:36 walterbender Sachiko, yes... you should be able to see the numbers above the circle and edit them
03:36 pikurasa Sachiko: The circle representation reinforces the graph representation.
03:36 walterbender as hertz or cents or a ratio
03:37 pikurasa It is not either or... it is both... multiple representations
03:37 walterbender "if you don't understand something more than one way, you don't understand it" -- Minskey
03:37 Minsky
03:38 Sachiko I see.... if so, I think it's OK! I just was not sure how the design would be... In the table it's quite easy to see the both or 3 ways of expressions. But on the circle... isn't it difficult?
03:39 walterbender Sachiko, there would be a box floating above the circle with those data
03:39 Sachiko, the table is quite overwhelming unless you are used to looking at those data
03:40 Sachiko I see... do you have clear image> Riya? Walter, Pikurasa, I see your points, too!
03:40 walterbender Sachiko, I think we want the learner to get to the point where the table is the preferred interface
03:40 pikurasa For those unfamiliar with the nature of pitch, the proportions would be hard to pinpoint with just the numbers
03:40 walterbender but to start, a visual representation would be best, IMHO
03:41 Sachiko I see!
03:41 walterbender any more questions/comments for tonight/today? it is getting late here in Boston
03:42 pikurasa has a baby, so he is used to not sleeping :)
03:42 riyalohia_ walterbender, pikurasa , sachiko : the ratios for the traditional temperament are editable?
03:42 pikurasa quite late... and baby just woke up
03:42 riyalohia_: yes, but once edited they become custom
03:42 walterbender riyalohia_, as soon as you edit them, then it because a custom temperament
03:42 becomes
03:43 riyalohia_ walterbender, pikurasa, maybe we can discuss this later (its quite late in Boston)
03:43 walterbender riyalohia_, we've introduced enough changes for one meeting :)
03:44 pikurasa riyalohia_: Please add this to your proposal. We can take a look and see if it is on the right track
03:44 riyalohia_ walterbender, yes :)
03:44 pikurasa riyalohia_: the proposal is otherwise very good.
03:44 Sachiko I do think so, too! Great proposal!
03:44 riyalohia_ pikurasa,Sachiko : thank you... I'll definitely add this to my proposal :)
03:45 pikurasa teaches a lot of kids, so when I thought about it I suspected we needed one more way of showing the info. Let's spend a little more time and get something we can all agree on.
03:45 riyalohia_: Thanks! Keep up the really great effort.
03:45 Okay, I gotta' get back to family
03:45 Cheers!
03:45 bye
03:45 walterbender good night.
03:45 thanks everyone
03:45 riyalohia_ pikurasa , thank you for the motivation :)
03:46 walterbender #end-meeting
03:46 meeting Meeting ended Wed May  9 03:46:00 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
03:46 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-09T02:31:29.html
03:46 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]18-05-09T02:31:29
03:46 Sachiko Bye! Cheers!
03:46 pikurasa Thanks again, everyone
03:46 a-ritwik bye
03:46 riyalohia_ Bye!
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