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#sugar-meeting, 2019-04-05

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19:11 pikurasa meeting to start soon?
19:11 meeting pikurasa: Error: "to" is not a valid command.
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19:30 MrBIOS pikurasa: 30 minutes
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19:51 walterbender hola todos
19:52 pikurasa hi everyone
19:52 MrBIOS hey walter
19:54 jaskirat Hi
19:55 jaskirat__ Hi
19:58 MrBIOS Quozl: around?
19:58 walterbender: out of curiosity, have you ever used Loomio?
19:59 Quozl yes, we've toyed with loomio, we have an account there.
19:59 walterbender MrBIOS, yes...
19:59 but not so much
19:59 I use Slack quite a lot on my Day Job
19:59 MrBIOS they have a 35% discount for non-profits (which, while we are technically not, SFC certainly is).
19:59 yeah, I use slack for day job too
20:00 walterbender I still prefer IRC.
20:00 MrBIOS Quozl: when you say “we” do you mean Sugar Labs, or OLPC?
20:00 Quozl standby, i'm hunting the missing board members.
20:00 llaske: are you here?
20:00 MrBIOS yep, only downside with IRC is no guaranteed message delivery
20:01 what interests me, specifically, is the decision-making bits of it
20:01 walterbender for Loomio?
20:01 llaske hi all
20:02 walterbender bon soir
20:02 samsongoddy <samsongoddy!~samsongod@129.56.79.161> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:02 Quozl okay, that's a quorum, starding.  samson joining.
20:02 llaske :-)
20:02 Quozl #startmeeting
20:02 meeting Meeting started Fri Apr  5 20:02:15 2019 UTC. The chair is Quozl. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:02 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
20:02 samsongoddy Sorry, I lost track of time
20:02 Quozl we have here walter, lionel, devin, james, samson, alex, but not claudia.
20:02 walterbender I will text her
20:02 MrBIOS We seem to have a problem with timely votes on motions, etc, especially via e-mail. Does anyone else disagree?
20:03 Quozl please list agenda items?  i have texted claudia too.
20:03 MrBIOS I guess that should be one of them? :)
20:03 walterbender Google Summer of Code
20:03 Google Documentation program
20:03 Kano workshop
20:03 MrBIOS We need 50x activities for Machine Learning for three year olds
20:03 walterbender :P
20:03 jaskirat__ Cool, seems to be a good start
20:04 Quozl i've an item too, which will go first.
20:04 thanks, noted the other agenda items.
20:04 #topic project representative
20:05 walterbender GNOME?
20:05 pikurasa Should we decide GNOME advisor rep for next year... or later?
20:05 Quozl i resign as project representative to the conservancy.  the position is invidious.  i don't have the necessary cultural awareness to compensate.  please select a replacement now.
20:05 walterbender Maybe Mr. Bios? Or pikurasa ?
20:05 pikurasa I can do it
20:05 walterbender could not handle it either...
20:05 Quozl i was thinking llaske or samson would be good.  ;-)
20:05 pikurasa I am Mr Patient
20:06 just ask all the parents of my students... Mr Patient
20:06 llaske :-D I will have more cultural issue than you
20:06 MrBIOS I do not want to do it, I would do a poor job. Personally, I propose we end our relationship with the conservancy, and become stand-alone. There is precedent for us doing this.
20:06 or rather, for other projects who wanted more control, having left the orbit of SFC
20:06 Quozl any other offers to do it?  someone has to do it even if we become stand-alone.
20:07 MrBIOS if we are working towards becoming stand-alone non-profit, I would be happy to do it until that actually happens, otherwise not
20:07 walterbender Let's put pikurasa in place first...
20:07 pikurasa If my first task is to end the relationship, I am certain that would test my ability to remain patient, but willing to do it if needed
20:07 walterbender we'd need a rep to negotiate SFCEXIT in any case
20:07 Quozl okay, someone propose a motion?
20:07 MrBIOS I personally think it’s in the best interest of Sugar Labs health to end our agreement with SFC. Does anyone else have any opinions on that matter?
20:08 samsongoddy I sort of discuss the idea with walter some days back
20:08 I think we need to move on
20:08 walterbender motion: SLOB appoints Devin Ulibarri to represent us with the SFC.
20:08 Quozl seconder please?
20:08 MrBIOS seconded.
20:08 samsongoddy SFC is great but I don't think SFC and Sugar Labs should continue
20:08 walterbender +1
20:08 llaske +1
20:08 Quozl votes?
20:08 samsongoddy +1
20:08 Quozl +1
20:08 MrBIOS this is after my in-person discussion with Bradley at the SCaLE conference.
20:08 pikurasa is not voting on something for myself
20:08 jaskirat has quit IRC
20:08 jaskirat__ is now known as 21WAAEPBN
20:08 MrBIOS they are simply spread too thin
20:09 one abstention
20:09 Quozl claudia is missing, pikurasa is abstaining.  okay, motion agreed.  i'll number it later.
20:09 #topic google summer of code
20:09 MrBIOS I was just going to ask about Claudia
20:10 walterbender I texted her... haven't heard back.
20:10 re GSoC...
20:10 an update: proposals are landing... they need to be in by next week.
20:11 We will need to add mentors to the portal to demonstrate we have mentors available
20:11 Quozl i'm amazed at some students, how blind they are to the obvious, how unwilling to read they are.
20:11 walterbender once we have slots assigned and agree on which proposals to accept, we can cull the mentor list
20:11 MrBIOS Quozl: yes it’s very disappointing, and clearly most of them have never actually used or tried to use Sugar.
20:11 llaske Could you add Tarun, he will be mentor for Sugarizer Dashboard ?
20:11 MrBIOS is there a limit to how many mentors we are allowed to have?
20:12 llaske I suggest one mentor by project on the platform
20:12 walterbender we can have as many as we want, but we also want to ensure that they are real
20:12 MrBIOS of course
20:12 walterbender I am certain we need more than 1 mentor per project
20:12 samsongoddy I am more concern about new project ideas (new activities)
20:13 Quozl my preference is one mentor per project, so there is no doubt as to who is responsible to answer a student.
20:13 walterbender We have some regular contributors applying
20:13 llaske Exactly my point Quozl
20:13 walterbender Quozl, we can make that clear without limiting ourselves.
20:13 MrBIOS we also have some people applying who clearly have no concept of the intended age range of Sugar users
20:13 Quozl i'm worried mentors won't notice how we make it clear.  ;-)
20:14 walterbender I don't want to get into this argument again, but the bottom line is that, for example, Music Blocks projects need input from Devin (Music) and Walter (coding)
20:14 I will ride harder on the mentors this year.
20:15 llaske We could have several mentors without declaring all on the Google platform
20:15 pikurasa Yes, it has been important for MB to have input from multiple mentors
20:15 walterbender I think it is important for most projects...
20:15 pikurasa cannot imagine what just one of us would have created... :p
20:15 llaske The responsability for the designated mentor is to work with other mentors
20:15 walterbender Sugar apps, for example, need pedagogical input as well as coding (and UX too)
20:16 llaske GSoC is for coding, only the coding mentor should be on the Google platform
20:16 Quozl i'm also worried that conversations between mentors and students will be in secret when our code of conduct says we should use the right forum.
20:16 MrBIOS yes, I think having mandatory one mentor only has more unintended negative consequences than having more than one.
20:16 walterbender First of all, the google platform is irrelevant to the mentoring process
20:17 pikurasa I think llaske is saying that the mentors must be registered in Google's GSoC system as mentor for current year
20:17 walterbender but not being on the google platform means that mentors won't be acked by google, which I think it unfair
20:17 perrie <perrie!~perrie@129.56.106.50> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:17 MrBIOS Quozl: if they want/choose to communicate in private, we can do nothing to stop it, but we can make clear and hammer home that we have a strong preference for that to not happen.
20:18 llaske I suggest that each mentor must do a public report each week for its project
20:18 walterbender All of the meetings I have had with my interns (and fellow mentors) in all the years we have been doing this have been on our IRC channels.
20:18 pikurasa llaske: can that be via IRC during weekly meetings?
20:18 Quozl i suggest that each mentor cc sugar-devel and ask student to do so as well?
20:18 walterbender llaske, we ask the students to do that.
20:18 and they do.
20:18 I hold a weekly meeting with all the interns and they make reports
20:19 llaske What I'm calling a report is: action from last week, todo for next week. It could be a small email to the list
20:19 walterbender I can post the meeting minutes to Sugar devel as well, if that will help.
20:19 llaske, that is what they report in the group meetings
20:19 samsongoddy I thought student already do that
20:19 walterbender look at the logs...
20:19 samsongoddy already at previous gsoc
20:20 walterbender for the past 10 years
20:20 Quozl nobody who is knew will know that.
20:20 s/knew/new
20:20 llaske because IRC minutes is too complex to read
20:20 walterbender knew or new? I don't no? :P
20:20 Quozl, FWIW, I announce this on devel every year as well
20:20 Quozl shall we move on to next topic?
20:21 walterbender please
20:21 MrBIOS please
20:21 pikurasa yes, please
20:21 Quozl walterbender: control as well as policy needed.
20:21 #topic google documentation
20:21 walterbender We need to decide if we want to participate
20:21 orgs need to start applying
20:21 MrBIOS well, our documentation is shit
20:22 so, I would argue we should
20:22 samsongoddy I speak for the educational team that we should apply
20:22 llaske Will love it but can't do it at the same time than GSoC
20:22 Quozl i almost never hear from the education team, are they secret?
20:22 MrBIOS yes, they’re all ninjas.
20:22 samsongoddy It is a new group
20:23 Quozl it seems to be uninvolved or a splinter
20:23 samsongoddy and they are working on bringing reports
20:23 walterbender that doesn't believe in using the lists
20:23 Quozl we frequently have discussions and decisions made by developers that would benefit from education input, but where are they?  hiding?
20:23 walterbender and ostracizes people that voice contrary opinions...
20:23 MrBIOS samsongoddy: that’s not true, it has existed since 2009
20:23 see history at https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/ind[…]am&action=history
20:23 samsongoddy I know
20:23 walterbender since 2008
20:23 MrBIOS :)
20:24 walterbender back on topic?
20:24 MrBIOS Quozl: we need to recruit. samsongoddy, is there a canonical list of people on the education team, as of today?
20:24 Quozl perhaps the new group, as a splinter org, just wanted legitimacy so grabbed the name?  like the design team tried twice?
20:24 MrBIOS the education team would probably want to be interacting with the documentation writers, would they not? at least, in theory
20:25 Quozl i think the developers will want to interact most.
20:25 technical documentation is the skill, for which developers are the dependency, and the cure for any doubts.
20:25 walterbender so are we interested in the Documentation program? Should we apply (no obligation)? Who will apply?
20:26 MrBIOS what is the process for applying? does anyone know?
20:26 samsongoddy I think we should apply
20:26 walterbender It is similar to GSoC
20:26 mostly boilerplate
20:26 Quozl i think the program would be beneficial, if it were to focus on user and teacher documentation for sugar and sugarizer.  i don't think we need any api documentation, we already have most of what we need.
20:26 MrBIOS I agree with the above
20:26 llaske Quozl: +1
20:26 pikurasa It is a good idea.
20:27 walterbender I think we need to ensure that potential deployments have the documentation that they need to get started
20:27 llaske Something like the book "XO in the classroom" will be great
20:27 walterbender Maybe I could get Sdenka to run the program for us.
20:28 21WAAEPBN Maybe related to TB and MB as well writing a book and having some video tutorials
20:28 walterbender Quozl, can I make a motion that we apply but leave the details of who does it out?
20:28 Quozl here's perhaps my next sugar laptop ... https://www.one-education.org/pages/infinity
20:28 walterbender: yes.
20:28 21WAAEPBN: for the record of the meeting, who are you?
20:29 pikurasa 21WAAEPBN: is Jaskirat, correct?
20:29 Quozl oh, it was jaskirat.
20:29 we also have perrie as visitor, i think.
20:29 walterbender motion: Sugar Labs will apply to the Google Season of Docs 2019 program.
20:29 Quozl i've been remiss at welcoming the visitors.  welcome!
20:29 21WAAEPBN Oh  yeah , client changed my name . Yes it is me jaskirat
20:29 perrie has quit IRC
20:30 pikurasa walterbender: seconded
20:30 Quozl +1
20:30 walterbender +1
20:30 MrBIOS +1
20:30 llaske +1
20:30 samsongoddy +1
20:30 Quozl the motion is agreed.  will number later.
20:31 #topic kano
20:31 perrie <perrie!~perrie@129.56.106.50> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:31 walterbender Just wanted to let everyone know that there is a Sugar workshop end of April in Kano State in Nigeria.
20:31 llaske Is it a remote workshop?
20:31 walterbender I'll post details as we learn more.
20:31 It is in the city center
20:31 MrBIOS it would be great if we could get a post-workshop report and some photos, if possible.
20:32 Quozl who is attending?
20:32 samsongoddy I will follow up on that
20:32 walterbender kids and parents from the area
20:32 Quozl is it a public event or invitation?
20:32 walterbender Public event
20:32 Quozl who is presenting?
20:33 walterbender Ahmed Idris is the lead
20:33 It will be a bunch of Sugar stations with different activities
20:33 and some teachers he has been working with
20:33 Quozl what is the duration of the event?
20:34 llaske Is there a Sugar deployment planned there?
20:34 walterbender Not sure.
20:34 llaske, this is a prelude
20:34 Quozl is ahmed idris a member of sugar labs, and are any other members of sugar labs going to be there?
20:34 MrBIOS walterbender: any idea if they are running SoaS, is it on Pi/ARM, or x86?
20:34 walterbender He is not a member... although heading in that direction
20:34 llaske or Sugarizer :-)
20:35 walterbender I think SoaS on workstations
20:35 samsongoddy Quozl, for me I am travelling for a private business. But Maybe Perrie or Ibiam might make the trip
20:35 I am considering asking one of them to travel to Kano
20:35 MrBIOS he should be aware that collaboration is completely broken in SoaS F28/29
20:35 walterbender I have been helping him remotely, but introduced him to the Sugar Labs members in Nigeria
20:35 MrBIOS, I don't think he'll touch on collaboration in the workshop.
20:36 Quozl in 2013 i've a mail from a Dr. Ahmed Zakeri Idris claiming to represent the president of Nigeria and offering to invest in my country.  Must be someone else we're talking about.  ;-)
20:36 MrBIOS ok, good to know.
20:36 llaske :-)
20:36 walterbender Quozl, I hope you send him your account info.
20:36 samsongoddy lol
20:36 Oh no
20:37 MrBIOS would it make sense for there to be a public, Nigeria-specific Sugar Labs mailing list, so some of the presumably-private conversations related to planning these sorts of things could be brought out into the open a bit more?
20:37 Quozl idrisahmed0011 at yahoo.co.jp was the return address, but i didn't get time to answer.
20:37 MrBIOS I would personally be in favor of something like that.
20:37 perrie I would have loved to be there but that's a school day for me
20:37 walterbender MrBIOS, why not use iaep? or devel?
20:38 samsongoddy I agree with Walter on that
20:38 There is no need to be specific
20:38 MrBIOS IAEP is general purpose, and a workshop is definitely not development related, but IAEP would probably be the most appropriate
20:38 I think we have _really_ abused the devel mailing list for a shit-ton of things that have zero to do with development.
20:38 Quozl iaep is appropriate, if the information can be public.  as it's been mentioned here, it is public.
20:39 is there a motion planned for this topic?
20:39 samsongoddy Not Perrie and Ibiam want to make the trip
20:39 *if
20:39 MrBIOS do we know if Amhed Idris is subscribed to IAEP, or even knows that it exists?
20:40 walterbender no motion... just a heads up
20:40 MrBIOS, I've told him about devel... don't recall re iaep
20:40 Quozl okay, any other topics?  for me, just a mention that summer time ends for me tomorrow, so i'll appear an hour later from now on.
20:41 MrBIOS I have another topic to add… Fedora 30 beta is out as of three days ago, and the beta ISOs for Sugar on a Stick are downloadable at https://download.fedoraproject[…]4-30_Beta-1.8.iso and https://download.fedoraproject[…]6-30_Beta-1.8.iso
20:41 (for 64-bit and 32-bit Intel machines, respectively)
20:41 walterbender I was just updating one on my machines with F30 last night
20:41 Quozl MrBIOS: is collaboration likewise completely broken?
20:41 MrBIOS collaboration was/is broken in earlier F30 builds, and I do not believe that F30 includes Sugar 0.113
20:42 walterbender MrBIOS, I will check this weekend
20:42 Quozl MrBIOS: yeah, in general fedora developers won't take our fixes unless someone raises a bug.
20:42 walterbender MrBIOS, any interest in being the rep to GNOME?
20:42 MrBIOS The Fedora 30 release schedule is here https://fedoraproject.org/wiki[…]eases/30/Schedule and Final Freeze is on the sixteenth of this month
20:42 Quozl #topic fedora 30
20:42 MrBIOS eleven days from today
20:42 Quozl #topic gnome representative
20:43 i confirm from src.fedoraproject.org that sugar is still 0.112
20:43 MrBIOS I volunteer myself to be the GNOME representative.
20:43 Quozl motion: alex perez to be one of our gnome project representatives.
20:43 samsongoddy Seconded
20:44 llaske +1
20:44 Quozl votes?
20:44 pikurasa +1
20:44 samsongoddy +1
20:44 walterbender +1
20:44 MrBIOS this will, officially, require me to attend weekly board meetings, as well as to "Attend the two days of in-person meetings prior to GUADEC. "
20:44 These responsibilities are laid out at https://wiki.gnome.org/FoundationBoard
20:45 Quozl motion is agreed.  i may make minor changes to the motion to fit the naming convention of gnome project.
20:45 pikurasa Just do not swear too much while representing SL MrBIOS
20:45 MrBIOS GUADEC 2019 is being held in Thessaloniki, Greece August 23rd — 28th
20:45 Quozl will number later.
20:45 #topic guadec 2019
20:46 MrBIOS pikurasa: I pledge to reserve deployments of F-bombs and other incindiary language ::
20:46 ;-)
20:46 Quozl okay, moving on?  i've another item to talk about;
20:47 #topic sugarizer discussions missing from sugar-devel@
20:47 llaske ?
20:47 Quozl a student told me they couldn't see any discussion about sugarizer or responses to questions on sugar-devel@ if the topic was sugarizer.  llaske are you answering privately?
20:48 llaske I've asked privately to all students that asked me to review their proposal
20:48 MrBIOS as far as I can tell, no meaningful sugarizer discussion happens on any Sugar Labs mailing lists.
20:48 development discussion, rather
20:48 Quozl a student asked for lionel's address in the past week, on sugar-devel@, but there was no answer if i recall correctly.
20:48 llaske: your address is not on your github profile, that was the first place one student looked.
20:48 llaske Okay I will add it
20:49 Quozl thanks.
20:49 pikurasa Feel free to answer on the list. That way we/others can follow.
20:49 Quozl okay, i'm done, any other topics?
20:49 #topic other business
20:49 llaske Sure but I'm very busy will students PR/Issues
20:50 samsongoddy I don't know if I should voice this out, but I will do it any way without mentioning names
20:50 llaske about 10-15 contributions each day
20:50 walterbender nothing else from me
20:50 Quozl llaske: yeah, i'm subscribed to the notifications, i see them.  ([llaske/sugarizer])
20:50 llaske plus llaske/sugarizer-server and llaske/ExerciserReact
20:51 samsongoddy Before we go I think we should consider making SL great again, for a community. I don't know how to do that
20:51 But people are complaining
20:51 llaske Thanks to all to reply on sugar-devel regarding Sugarizer, specically Quozl
20:51 Quozl are they complaining in private to you?  that's good, they think you can fix it.
20:51 MrBIOS samsongoddy: apply?
20:51 rather, about?
20:52 samsongoddy How unsafe and how we don't thank our vision seriously
20:52 Quozl what is unsafe?  which vision?
20:53 MrBIOS I do believe we should be asking ourselves what our vision is, but I don’t understand "unsafe"
20:53 Quozl is the complaint about the oversight board or the community in general?
20:54 walterbender unwelcoming? I know I feel unwelcome at the education team meetings
20:54 samsongoddy Quozl, I don't think I can fix it. I am just 1 out of 7 of us responsible. As for "safe" some members and visitors says that we are rude for a starter.
20:55 But the most mentioned is how we don't want to listen to other contributors
20:55 I am assuming they mean the day to day community bonding in SL
20:55 Quozl who is we?  the community or the oversight board?
20:55 MrBIOS Simon Schampijer (AKA erikos) is listed as the current Fedora Sugar package maintainer, according to https://src.fedoraproject.org/[…]r/erikos/projects
20:56 Quozl MrBIOS: are you listening?  ;-)
20:56 samsongoddy Not Oversight Board but the "community"
20:56 MrBIOS samsongoddy: I guess “don’t want to listen” can be taken a number of ways. Can you be more specific?
20:57 pikurasa I think that samsongoddy is bringing up something important.
20:57 MrBIOS a common problem with volunteer-oriented organizations is that other newcomers think that if they suggest an idea, other people will simply do it, or see how obvious it is. Is that some of what’s going on here, or something else?
20:57 samsongoddy People are afraid of suggesting or improving something because of how they feel about the main community members
20:58 walterbender I observe something in addition...
20:58 Quozl sometimes when i try to listen and reply very carefully, i'm told i'm rude and condescending.  sometimes when i reply hastily, i'm told i'm rude and too brief.  damned if i do, and damned if i don't.  i really think it is criticism of those in power, which is a common theme in today's world.
20:59 MrBIOS samsongoddy: could that be short-circuited by simply allowing and soliciting anonymous suggestions?
20:59 walterbender We are a learning organization and we need to accommodate new and veteran contributors ... let them make mistakes and learn.
20:59 MrBIOS agreed
20:59 walterbender but it is not always easy
20:59 samsongoddy +1 walterbender
20:59 walterbender and it takes time
21:00 and I think we all are very pressured time-wise
21:00 Quozl llaske: what do you think of this issue?
21:00 samsongoddy Maybe we should try to do a survey
21:00 walterbender to what end?
21:00 samsongoddy to get community input without collecting names
21:00 Quozl if you ask people there is a problem, more people will say there is a problem than would have said so.
21:00 llaske I think you try to do the best to give maximum informations to volunteer
21:01 But it's sometimes boring to repeat always the same thing
21:01 pikurasa I think we could do a couple things without any survey:
21:01 walterbender maybe we can ask Pattie (our ombudsman) to do a little investigating?
21:01 samsongoddy +1
21:01 pikurasa 1) Have some template "welcome" for those who ask "I am new. What can I do?" We get many of those emails.
21:02 walterbender Quozl has such a template that he shares and updates
21:02 Quozl also, samson, could you urge these private correspondents of yours to speak more in public about their problem?
21:02 MrBIOS Should we move to set up an anonymous suggestion system?
21:02 this is low-effort
21:02 samsongoddy Quozl, I did. But I guess they don't want to speak out
21:03 walterbender pikurasa, and #2?
21:03 pikurasa 2) Put ourselves in the other person's shoes when responding to questions (e.g. think "how might they (unintentionally) take this?")
21:03 questions, etc
21:03 MrBIOS samsongoddy: did you ask them if they would do so anonymously?
21:03 llaske I like the #1 idea
21:03 samsongoddy Yeap. MrBIOS
21:03 walterbender pikurasa, not always so easy... especially given the diversity of the community :P
21:03 Quozl i think anonymous input lacks usefulness, because then any of us could use it as an attack vector.  i'm sure i have some people who would do that to me.
21:04 walterbender has been trolled many times
21:04 MrBIOS Quozl:  I agree it is a risk, but you don’t have to choose to share the feedback publicly.
21:05 Quozl other possibility is that samson is being trolled to swing him away from sugar labs involvement.  ;-)
21:05 MrBIOS we (as a board, and presumably the collective recipients of such anonymous feedback) can decide whether or not to share it, when it is appropriate to do so, and not incendiary.
21:05 Quozl our time for the meeting is expired, do we have a motion?
21:06 pikurasa I need to go now.
21:06 MrBIOS most of the on-line, third party suggestion box platforms seem to cost about USD $9 per month.
21:06 I do not think we should host our own, for privacy reasons.
21:06 walterbender I'll bring the topic up with Pattie and ask her to report back.
21:06 Quozl we could also ask sfc.
21:07 MrBIOS sure, although again, they do seem very reticent to dedicate any further time to anything related to Sugar Labs
21:07 samsongoddy Quozl, maybe I get some attacks. But I am more understanding than a new visitor
21:07 Quozl MrBIOS: could you investigate without a motion?  pikurasa needs to go, we need to end the meeting.
21:08 21WAAEPBN I just wanted to add something, if that does not mind. Since working of SFc and Open Collective is same and Open Collective has better transparency for fundraising. We should try shifting or put ourselves on Open Collective for raising funds for various aspects
21:08 MrBIOS sure, end the meeting, I will investigate a bit.
21:08 Quozl motion: meeting close, all in favour?
21:08 samsongoddy Collective doesn't give governance support
21:08 +1
21:08 21WAAEPBN https://opencollective.com/
21:08 pikurasa +1
21:09 llaske +1
21:09 pikurasa has quit IRC
21:09 MrBIOS Open Collective is nice in theory, but it only solves one aspect of the problem.
21:09 and quite frankly, it’s the easier of the two.
21:09 walterbender +1
21:09 MrBIOS for that very reason.
21:09 samsongoddy replacement of SFC can be OSI or FSF
21:10 or we stand alone
21:10 21WAAEPBN @MrBIOS: I am not sure what do you exactly refer to as aspects
21:10 MrBIOS 21WAAEPBN: it does not solve the fact that we do not actually control our own fate, as SFC members, because of the amount of control that we lack.
21:10 21WAAEPBN One aspect like? Just curious to know
21:11 samsongoddy 21WAAEPBN, I have a project with OC
21:11 MrBIOS our agreement with them may not even allow for such independent collection of funds, quite frankly.
21:11 it would have to be looked in to.
21:11 21WAAEPBN @MrBIOS: I agree
21:11 Quozl MrBIOS: vote to end meeting please?  then you can continue your non-meeting discussion.
21:11 21WAAEPBN @samsongoddy: yeah I know open source africa? Right? Even I do run a project there
21:11 MrBIOS Sure. I vote to end this meeting.
21:12 only eleven minutes over ;)
21:12 Would be nice to know where Claudia went
21:12 Quozl #endmeeting
21:12 meeting Meeting ended Fri Apr  5 21:12:20 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
21:12 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-05T20:02:15.html
21:12 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]19-04-05T20:02:15
21:12 walterbender Back to Samson's topic: One tangible piece of feedback I will share publicly: I think that the devel community has been dismissive of the role of non-developers.
21:13 MrBIOS samsongoddy: I would strongly encourage you and your other Nigerian volunteers to form a Local Lab, see https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]al_Labs_Directory
21:13 walterbender Perhaps because we are very thin on developers?
21:13 samsongoddy MrBIOS, I am working on that
21:13 walterbender, agreed
21:13 MrBIOS walterbender: I agree as well.
21:14 samsongoddy I am actually again't it. As Sugar Labs is an "Educational" project when people Google it
21:14 walterbender frankly, even today's GSoC discussion about mentors... we already had this discussion and agreed to a mechanism to add non-coding mentors... but I had to defend that position once again.
21:15 samsongoddy "non-coding" is offensive to the open source community
21:15 walterbender I don't agree. But it seems to be to some developers.
21:16 samsongoddy So what do we do? we didn't have that category last year or previous years as far as GSoC is concerned
21:18 21WAAEPBN Tagging as non-coding categorizes volunteers for future things which is inappropriate
21:18 MrBIOS samsongoddy: what are you against, exactly?
21:18 walterbender I think the intention was to ensure there was an experienced Sugar developer associated with each project. But it seems (in some minds) to have turned into only experienced Sugar developers need apply.
21:18 llaske has quit IRC
21:18 MrBIOS yes, you are a contributor, period. developers can be contributors, and they can also not be contributors (to Sugar Labs) and still be developers.
21:18 walterbender we have a few of those too :)
21:19 samsongoddy I am against the word "non-coding" when using it in an open community like Sugar Labs
21:19 which is educational focused
21:19 21WAAEPBN +1
21:19 MrBIOS well, if you know very little/nothing about Sugar, you probably shouldn’t consider being a mentor.
21:19 Quozl i'm against the tendency for non-coders to refuse to learn even the simplest coding.  they set themselves such limits.
21:20 walterbender Quozl, me too... and I think everyone should learn git...
21:20 but...
21:20 Quozl we also see it with coders who refuse to learn the next skill they need, like debugging, or c, or kernels.
21:20 walterbender MrBIOS, last year, we had a lot of mentors go MIA
21:20 MrBIOS walterbender: I’m aware
21:21 there has also been a surge of unsubscribes on our mailing lists. I see those e-mails.
21:21 walterbender but I don't actually think it correlated with either coding skills or Sugar experience.
21:21 MrBIOS (and subscriptions, to be fair)
21:21 walterbender the MIAs
21:21 Quozl we usually get a surge of unsubscribes when lots of mails come out.
21:22 i think it's the traffic forcing people to reassess their involvement.
21:22 a surge also triggers the undeliverable address unsubscribes.
21:23 oh, and i only recently enabled unsubscribe notifications.  you may have thought it was a surge; we just weren't getting them before that.
21:23 MrBIOS walterbender: all of the links at https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]al_Labs_Directory to individual labs are broken, I am going to remove them. Any objections?
21:23 walterbender no objection
21:23 Quozl yes, remove anything that is broken, if anyone objects they are responsible for noticing you.
21:23 walterbender +1
21:24 plus... it is a wiki... there is a page history. they can restore
21:24 MrBIOS yep. done
21:24 it just looks bad.
21:26 Quozl walterbender: suggestion; before you add mentors to gsoc dashboard, please remind them of their immediate responsibilities?  e.g. if you want them to, or don't want them to review the final proposals now, or later.
21:28 MrBIOS we really need a new maintainer for Fedora SoaS and for the fedora Sugar packages themselves. They are all on life support.
21:29 Quozl ... i think the complaints that samsongoddy relays have to do with a perception of non-inclusiveness, and much of our decision-making on how to handle gsoc mentors has happened on github instead of sugar-devel@ ... wrong forum again.
21:30 there are a few assisting mentors on the ideas page that i've not seen react to any notifications on the gsoc repository, so i suspect they don't get them.  aren't listed as watching.  aren't members of the github org.
21:32 conversation seems to have dried up, i'll go get myself some breakfast.  ;-)
21:33 walterbender sorry... got distracted by a phone call
21:33 MrBIOS I’m here
21:33 samsongoddy My passport is stuck at the South African embassy
21:33 I am honestly tired about anything visa these days
21:34 walterbender Quozl, I will remind all of the potential mentors of their responsibilities
21:34 samsongoddy, it is a miasma that has been in the air since 2016
21:36 samsongoddy you are right
21:36 I am just a bit lucky that for USA, I got the visa process on the right time. If not I will be facing another problem
21:37 and it is hard when you are using passport from Africa
21:37 especially a Nigerian one
21:38 I saw on the news that US nationals will be needing visas to Europe
21:39 MrBIOS samsongoddy: that’s only partially correct, see https://www.schengenvisainfo.c[…]ch-is-not-a-visa/
21:48 samsongoddy walterbender: Do you think SL should look into adopting one hardware to recommend to new users as how we did with OLPC?
21:48 Something extremely cheap
21:49 walterbender I think we should support several as demonstration projects, e.g., RPi and perhaps the Positivo laptop to be built in Rwanda.
21:49 but not be exclusive
21:50 has to go...
21:50 ttyl
21:55 MrBIOS I agree, no one platform should be the only one we support. The hardware evolves too quickly for that to be a successful strategy, honestly.
21:55 samsongoddy +1
21:57 walter__ <walter__!~walter@146.115.133.213> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:00 Quozl https://www.one-education.org/pages/infinity ... i've been testing this one, i like it.
22:01 MrBIOS has quit IRC
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22:04 samsongoddy yes
22:04 good device
22:04 but a bit expensive
22:04 $500??
22:04 Quozl you're misled by the price.
22:04 that's with an australian consumer law warranty, plus more warranty beyond it.
22:05 you're also looking at australian dollars, which confuses it further.
22:05 samsongoddy I have the infinity:one prototype
22:05 Oh AUS dollars
22:06 Quozl i'm aiming for something around $250 USD ... the much cheaper mass production models by the big companies always seem to lack something.
22:06 this one is a custom build.
22:07 samsongoddy Wow that is cheap
22:07 then
22:07 I will try ordering one myself
22:07 MrBIOS <MrBIOS!~aperez@216.52.21.30> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:08 Quozl i've heard stock of the second infinity mass production run should be arriving in sydney within about a week.
22:09 samsongoddy Did you manage to get linux installed?
22:09 Quozl yes, and everything worked.  i used ubuntu 18.04 with the olpc sugar packages.
22:09 samsongoddy Then I am sold
22:09 Quozl even the active pen worked well.
22:09 samsongoddy I save for it and get it
22:10 MrBIOS Quozl: cool. What’s the price range/
22:12 Quozl MrBIOS: depends on what you want.  the model advertised has an active pen and windows.  removing them lowers the price.  since their target market is students, parents, and teachers in australian schools, they don't see the demand for anything _but_ the most optioned up.
22:12 MrBIOS *nod*
22:13 satellit_ I may be interested also  US price?  (fedora 30) no OS?
22:13 MrBIOS I mean, it’s a computer, you can put anything on it
22:21 Quozl: that’s why I asked “range”
22:22 Quozl MrBIOS: alright, at MoQ 10,000 probably $USD 215
22:23 ... two million dollars tends to do things to pricing.  ;-)
22:23 MrBIOS yes, I’m well aware. Can individuals buy them, or not?
22:25 Quozl at the moment, one education australia will sell to individuals, and you can talk to them ... but the power cables are australian, you would have to source your own iec c5 cable.  if olpc goes for it, we would stock some, and possibly offer it for individual sale, as we _already do_ with the nl3 and xo.  ;-}
22:25 MrBIOS that’s hardly a concern for me
22:26 Quozl exactly.  but i've had push back just about the cable.
22:26 MrBIOS rolls eyes
22:27 Quozl i've even had push back that the installation is not as easy as an xo and there's no security system, but nobody has ponied up on those yet.
22:27 we can do anything with money.  ;-)
22:30 MrBIOS meh
22:37 Quozl gah, i'm sore.  was doing about 60mph on a dirt road yesterday and hit a washed away section; depth of etching was about 6 inches.  seatbelt bruising.
22:39 qwebirc8197 has quit IRC
22:42 MrBIOS yuck. 60 on dirt/gravel is risky
22:43 Quozl shrug.  it's fine if you've done it for ten years and know the road.  forgetting recent rain was the mistake.
22:44 i'd also just changed a flat, so had "i'm late" bias biting in.
22:44 the next decision was "be late".
22:45 the etching was randomly shaded by light tree cover, and mostly along the direction of travel, so from a distance it looked like tyre tracks.
22:47 MrBIOS I was up at an acre-sized vacant lot I own up in the Sierra Nevadas, a few weekends ago, chainsawing up an oak tree that had fallen, and I barely got out of there with 4WD due to soil saturation.
22:48 Quozl we've been bone dry for two years here, and had 3.7 inches of rain.  no vegetation left to keep the water in the paddocks and farms, so it departed via any friendly road.
22:50 MrBIOS here in the town I live in, we broke a record of 4.7 inches of rain in a 24 hour period, this winter
22:50 since record keeping began in 1902
22:51 Quozl we're finding weather systems are much slower moving than ten years ago.  we've had a few cyclones off the coast that almost sit around doing nothing bit digging in.  we see it also with rain cells, and heatwaves.
22:56 perrie has quit IRC
22:57 MrBIOS yeah, same around the world in lots of places, it would seem.
22:57 Quozl:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/HoddMnuJvWMr29ux9
22:58 Quozl lovely.  wish we had mud like that.  ;-)
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