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#sugar-meeting, 2019-09-11

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Time Nick Message
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19:53 Quozl meeting: ping
19:53 meeting pong
19:54 MrBIOS hello, folks.
19:54 We _finally_ _finally_ _finally_ have some progress from SFC on the exit & grant agreement.
19:57 pikurasa hi
19:59 Quozl #startmeeting
19:59 meeting Meeting started Wed Sep 11 19:59:37 2019 UTC. The chair is Quozl. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:59 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
19:59 Quozl #topic quorum
19:59 we have speaking alex, devin, and myself.  anyone else?
20:01 MrBIOS I had previously spoken with Walter via Hangouts, and he mentioned he wasn’t sure he’d be able to make this instance of our SLOB meeting. I pinged him a minute or two ago, but no response
20:02 pikurasa I am sending a message to Walter
20:02 oh, ok, MrBIOS, thanks for info
20:03 MrBIOS we are missing a significant contingency of SLOBs
20:03 llaske: ping
20:03 pikurasa I think, for the most part, we have some work to do regarding the exit and new entity
20:04 MrBIOS indeed we do.
20:04 Quozl no quorum, no ability to decide anything for sugar labs.  let's continue without quorum.  agenda for rest of meeting, as devin has suggested already, is the incorporation effort.
20:05 i
20:05 MrBIOS has anyone pinged Claudia yet?
20:05 Quozl i'd like to add to the agenda development efforts and downstream hopes.
20:05 pikurasa I do not have Claudia's phone number
20:05 Quozl i have not pinged, but can try.
20:06 pikurasa walter says he will be here soon
20:06 llaske hi
20:06 pikurasa For example, what is our mailing address going to be?
20:06 llaske: hi
20:06 Quozl i have pinged claudia.
20:06 pikurasa Quozl: thanks
20:07 Quozl llaske: thanks.  we have quorum of four.
20:07 #topic forming the new entity
20:07 MrBIOS pikurasa:  there are services for that, who will take all received mail, scan it, and send it electronically to the board/whomever else is specified.
20:08 obviously that isn’t free
20:08 pikurasa MrBIOS: yes, but do you have any recommendations?
20:08 MrBIOS I do not, Kyle had some experience with services such as that.
20:08 I haven’t discussed it with him since my initial phone call with him back in April/May
20:09 pikurasa I do not particularly mind the mail being sent to me, but would rather it be automatically scanned and sent out to multiple people.
20:09 What is that kind of service called? (trying to look it up)
20:09 Quozl i know from organisational experience mail should be sent to one person, and that person should relay to the group, file, and respond.
20:09 MrBIOS yeah, I think the most important thing is to eliminate potential single points of failure, including postal delivery
20:10 Quozl otherwise dilution of responsibility results in non-response.
20:10 MrBIOS pikurasa:  https://wiki.ezvid.com/g/best-[…]scanning-services
20:10 Quozl what are the sugar labs trademarks?
20:11 pikurasa I found this: https://travelingmailbox.com/
20:11 Quozl: the SL logo, for example
20:11 MrBIOS yep, they’re on the list
20:11 Quozl:  not just logos, we actually have “Sugar Labs” trademarked, as well as “Sugar on a Stick"
20:12 walterbender <walterbender!~walter@146.115.133.213> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:12 walterbender hi. Sorry I am late.
20:12 Quozl walterbender: welcome.  we have five now.  lionel, devin, james, alex, walter.
20:12 don't know about claudia or samson.
20:13 walterbender I can try texting Claudia
20:13 MrBIOS USPTO Trademark, Serial Number 77634279, is assigned to SFC
20:13 on our behalf
20:13 Quozl i've send claudia a message via a mobile app, but no answer, but the app claims receipt.
20:14 MrBIOS Sugar on a Stick: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/[…]e=4807:dq54v9.4.3
20:14 Sugar Labs: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/[…]e=4807:dq54v9.5.2
20:14 Quozl okay, the "Sugar Labs" trademark is critical if the name of the new entity contains the trademark.
20:15 i've sent samson a message via a mobile app.
20:15 MrBIOS pikurasa:  https://scanmailboxes.com/pricing/ $180 per year
20:15 walterbender I don't see how we can proceed without it.
20:15 MrBIOS there is another option for Registered Agent only, but unclear if it only applies to Texas or other states.
20:15 walterbender Claudia is joining...
20:15 pikurasa MrBIOS: Are you mentioning this because you would like to specify these in the agreement?
20:16 samsongoddy <samsongoddy!~samsongod@154.66.52.153> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:16 Claudia <Claudia!~webchat@18.27.196.14> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:16 pikurasa It would be nice to be specific about what trademark is to be transfered.
20:16 samsongoddy Sorry for coming late, I keep mixing up with timezone
20:16 Quozl all are present now.  discussion is the new entity.
20:16 Claudia Hello everyone
20:16 MrBIOS pikurasa: simply for completeness and because I know where to go to find them, but yes, they should explicitly be specified.
20:16 Claudia Just got out of a meeting
20:16 MrBIOS as well as all domain names registered by SFC on our behalf
20:16 Claudia: no worries, thank you for joining
20:17 pikurasa MrBIOS: Traveling Mailbox' pricing https://travelingmailbox.com/pricing
20:18 We are kind of jumping around with topics...
20:18 Claudia Thanks, MrBIOS
20:19 pikurasa Quozl: Please propose our first topic. At some point during this meeting, I would like to nail down our address.
20:19 Quozl topic is the new entity work, i've already stated it.  i'm waiting for consensus.  if you have a proposed motion, go for it.
20:21 everyone has gone silent.  how did that shut us down?
20:21 MrBIOS I move that we decide how the board of SLI (Sugar Labs, Inc) be populated initially, as I believe there are at least two current board members who do not wish to continue on the board of a US Coroporate Entity.
20:22 Quozl yay.
20:22 MrBIOS we’re all typing ;)
20:22 llaske Just a precision, I'm agree to continue to serve in the new board
20:22 Quozl that's unfortunate.  i know i'm one, who is the other?
20:22 samsongoddy I am catching up with the logs
20:22 pikurasa I was typing, too. Yes, let's discuss that.
20:23 MrBIOS I believe llaske had voiced some concerns previously. llaske, care to clarify?
20:23 llaske: got it, thank you
20:23 missed your comment a few lines above
20:24 samsongoddy I am interested to join the new board
20:24 Claudia I am also happy to continue
20:24 MrBIOS ok, great.
20:24 llaske (it's because I was deconnected during last meeting but the log mention that I'm not agree to serve in the new board, it's why I'm doing this precision)
20:24 Quozl So someone should move that the new board be Walter Bender, Lionel Laské, Devin Ulibarri, Samson Goddy, Alex Perez, and Claudia Urrea
20:24 llaske disconnected
20:25 MrBIOS Quozl: preferably someone who will not serve on that new board should motion that ;-)
20:26 Quozl MrBIOS: interesting, i thought the exact opposite.
20:26 MrBIOS well, I’m happy to do so if it’s necessary.
20:27 pikurasa go ahead
20:27 MrBIOS Right, then, I move that the new board members of SLI, Inc be Walter Bender, Lionel Laské, Devin Ulibarri, Samson Goddy, Alex Perez, and Claudia Urrea
20:27 Quozl pending motion as stated, votes please?
20:27 samsongoddy seconded
20:28 MrBIOS +1
20:28 llaske +1
20:28 Claudia +1
20:28 walterbender +1
20:28 pikurasa *Sugar Labs, Inc | +1
20:28 samsongoddy +1
20:28 Quozl abstain.  motion is agreed.
20:28 what next?
20:29 samsongoddy Any update Re: GCI, walterbender?
20:29 Quozl anything further on the new entity work?
20:29 walterbender Not yet. I don't think it was announced.
20:29 llaske I even not sure about agenda of GCI this year
20:30 walterbender it is pushed back to Dec/Jan instead of Oct/Nov.
20:30 samsongoddy I saw a mail from the Google OSS team some months back that they might be changing the dates
20:30 walterbender Which is much better for me :P
20:30 MrBIOS was there a final discussion of GSoC last meeting?
20:30 Quozl with many services broken, the interested parties for gci that are starting to arrive have a different view of reality constrained by what is readable.
20:30 it's refreshing.
20:31 pikurasa My question to the group is: What physical address do we want to use for Sugar Labs, Inc.? Do you want to choose a physical mail scan service (such as https://travelingmailbox.com) and use that as our address? Or someone's here?
20:31 llaske We've got already mentor candidate for GCI, guess you should give some rules of that
20:31 we should
20:31 pikurasa I ask because we need it to complete the F1023
20:32 walterbender I could get a PO box or happy to use my home address.
20:32 pikurasa walterbender: it needs to be a physical address
20:32 walterbender I assume it doesn't have to be Delaware.
20:32 pikurasa no po box
20:32 walterbender We can use my house, "Sugar Shack"
20:32 samsongoddy it funny because the physical address of SL on the internet says Boston
20:32 MrBIOS pikurasa:  I am willing to sign us up for a year of mailbox service now, shall I?
20:33 pikurasa walterbender: you will be getting a lot of important but boring IRS mail
20:33 walterbender that's ok. it needs to go somewhere.
20:33 MrBIOS I would rather not use a person’s address, it’s a potential single point of failure
20:33 pikurasa and the consequences of not responding could cost us thousands
20:33 MrBIOS the bus factor is high, and it can be reduced for under $200, which I’m offering to float
20:33 walterbender OK. What scheme isn't a single point of failure?
20:34 MrBIOS walterbender: mail scanning ingestion service
20:34 Quozl "bus factor" meaning "what happens if person x is hit by a bus", a mode of transport known for inability to stop moving.
20:34 walterbender I get the bus bit... they scan all of our mail and send it out?
20:34 Do we get the originals too?
20:35 pikurasa If need be, I can have mail sent to my office in Malden. Walter and I both come to this address, so maybe not as much a "single point"...
20:35 walterbender Do we trust them more than one of us?
20:35 pikurasa (and I have a scanner here)
20:35 Quozl the payment confers the trust by creating the inducement to continue.
20:35 walterbender Is it hard to change the address after the fact?
20:35 MrBIOS walterbender: they do it profesionally, for thousands of entities, and are legally obligated to do it properly.
20:35 Scan Mailboxes Terms of Service state "We will immediately notify you via email when we receive service of process and important documents. They will be scanned in color at 300 DPI and the PDF will be emailed to you at no additional cost. Then, you may instruct us what to do with your original physical copy."
20:36 walterbender MrBIOS, then I am fine with that approach.
20:36 prefers to have less rather than more on his plate.
20:36 pikurasa MrBIOS: I am fine with that approach, too.
20:37 MrBIOS: So, is SLI to reimburse you after you register?
20:37 MrBIOS pikurasa: preferably, after we have funds to do so
20:38 Claudia I am ok with it as well
20:39 pikurasa I move to assign MrBIOS (Alex P) to register a physical mailing address for SLI with a Scan Mailbox Service and be reimbursed for his expense once SLI has control over its own funds.
20:39 Quozl pending motion, votes?
20:39 samsongoddy seconded
20:39 Quozl +1
20:39 Claudia +1
20:39 walterbender +1
20:40 samsongoddy +1
20:40 llaske +1
20:40 Quozl MrBIOS: ?
20:40 pikurasa MrBIOS: ??
20:40 MrBIOS +1
20:40 :)
20:40 pikurasa suspense...
20:40 Quozl agreed motion.
20:40 anything further on the topic?
20:41 pikurasa MrBIOS: Please send me the address right once you get it
20:41 that is all
20:41 thanks
20:41 MrBIOS pikurasa: I’ll have it in just a moment
20:41 Claudia thanks
20:41 Quozl okay, if nothing further on topic ...
20:42 #topic gsoc and gci
20:42 from my perspective, gsoc went okay, but the effort of our three sugar students was minimal.  i'm picking up the pieces now, and should have the work completed within six months.
20:43 as far as i can see, their approach was to run the automated conversion, test until the activity or component _started_, and the make a pull request expecting all other features to be tested by the process.  ;-)
20:44 llaske On Sugarizer side, I'm very happy of the result and I expect to integrate works for three students before end of October.
20:44 Quozl llaske: that's good.
20:44 is gci open for business yet, or can we decide later?
20:44 walterbender And the Music Blocks interns did solid work
20:44 It is not open yet.
20:45 I did speak to Google and there should be no issue with SL participating, even in our state of limbo.
20:45 pikurasa walterbender: great!
20:45 yes, the MB did well
20:45 *MB interns
20:46 Quozl okay, that's dried up, next topic anyone?
20:46 pikurasa Back to the F1023, is anyone planned to be compensated at this point?
20:46 I assume not, but need to ask.
20:47 (it is Part V)
20:47 Claudia How is the work in Japan going?
20:48 pikurasa Claudia: It is going well. We were accepted for a Phase 2
20:48 MrBIOS pikurasa:  not at this point
20:48 pikurasa Which gives me much higher confidence that we will have MB in the public schools.
20:48 Claudia Have you written a report?
20:48 it would be great to do some type of reporting/story about it
20:49 pikurasa However, the real question remaining is how to give the teachers what they need so that they can successfully implement a curriculum in the classroom
20:49 Claudia interested in learning more?
20:49 pikurasa Claudia: I have not written a recent report, but yes we should do this.
20:49 Claudia I am...
20:49 MrBIOS Claudia: I am as well.
20:49 I have another topic, for when we exhaust the current one, which is the Sugar Labs Infrastrcture, and it’s age/maintainability.
20:50 Quozl #topic work in japan
20:50 .
20:50 #topic sugar labs infrastructure brittle
20:50 it's been weeks without our critical services, like web site, translation, activity downloads.
20:50 pikurasa Quozl: Do you have everyone on the new board's address? (I remember you had a spreadsheet) I need it for this F1023. If you have, please send.
20:50 Quozl was caused by MIT renumbering.
20:51 pikurasa: no, i don't have postal or residential addresses in the register, just phone numbers.
20:51 and MIT renumbering also affected laptop.org servers, but i handled that directly.
20:52 pikurasa Quozl: ok, I will request by email. Thanks
20:53 walterbender re infrastructure, as you may have heard, the Media Lab has been a bit upside down of late.
20:53 So getting them to be responsive is not likely
20:53 Quozl MrBIOS: my gut feel is that the infra is correctly sized for a large team, but we have a very small team now.
20:53 samsongoddy I saw the news
20:53 MrBIOS Yes, MIT _only_ contacted Dogi (AKA Stefan Unterhausen), about the IP renumbering, and not us at our systems list, or anyone else, one week before the re-numbering took place. I had to make multiple phone calls in desperation to various folks at MIT Media Lab to get sufficient resources mustered to rectify things.
20:53 walterbender maybe we should consider other solutions?
20:53 MrBIOS so that was a fairly major notification failure on their part.
20:54 Quozl to be fair, who of us were _maintaining_ the relationship?  not i.
20:54 MrBIOS walterbender: we pay nothing for what we get, but we also get zero guaranteed turnaround, support-wise, which is horrible when remote hardware becomes inaccessible or otherwise breaks.
20:54 llaske May be it's time to study a migration to the cloud
20:54 walterbender +1
20:54 MrBIOS Quozl: I had at least had written correspondence with the MIT Media Lab admins within months of this change, and they did not reach out to me.
20:55 llaske: I am in favor generally, except it could potentially be much more expensive.
20:55 I think there are certain user-facing services that should absolutely be in the cloud, particularly ASLO and the main website
20:56 llaske Do we really need high performance servers? Do we have stats about usage of the infrastructure?
20:56 Quozl activities.sugarlabs.org is on an outdated distribution and is unmaintained, cloud providers would want it wrapped for security somehow.
20:56 the board declined to do anything about activities.sugarlabs.org when i mentioned it.
20:57 walterbender Quozl, please remind me what you think should be done?
20:57 Quozl walterbender: port the web application to the latest version of php.
20:57 MrBIOS llaske: we have some stats, but it’s rather limited.
20:57 Yes, ASLO need to be made to work with PHP7
20:57 we can pay someone to do that
20:57 walterbender Quozl, how can the board help with that?
20:57 Claudia Quozl: say more
20:57 I think we should look at it
20:58 llaske there is few questions: is it possible to migrate? how much it will cost? who is able to do the migration?
20:58 MrBIOS llaske:  I can do the actual migration. It’s possible to migrate, but if we are going to bother to, it should include making ASLO PHP7 compatible.
20:59 and that is something I am not capable of doing, nor willing to do :)
20:59 walterbender How much work would it be relative to getting ALSO 3 sufficiently feature rich so as to have a Python replacement???
21:00 MrBIOS walterbender: I can’t answer that, but the timelines may not be comparable.
21:00 walterbender Or is there some existing tool we could migrate to?
21:00 Quozl walterbender: authors of aslo 3 did not start out to achieve that, and specifically refused to do so when asked.
21:00 llaske I think we should consider to migrate to cloud without any change. Upgrading ASLO is another project.
21:00 MrBIOS llaske: migrate _what_ to the cloud?
21:00 It’s a fair amount of work, mind you
21:01 moving something like ASLO is much less
21:01 Quozl we should consider everything in our services list.  sunjammer is a FSF, but that could easily blow up, right?
21:01 walterbender I think we should try to move everything to the cloud.
21:02 MrBIOS Quozl: it could. Currently it hosts our mail server and mailing lists, amongst other things
21:02 llaske +1 walterbender
21:02 MrBIOS walterbender: even if it costs hundreds of dollars a month?
21:02 there has to be some sort of cost/benefit analysis.
21:02 walterbender I cannot imagine that it would be that expensive.
21:02 llaske +1 again walterbender
21:02 Quozl MIT helped OLPC migrate everything to their cloud, just saying.  perhaps they might be interested in migrating away from hosting actual hardware.
21:03 MrBIOS once you move to the cloud, you have to actually pay for bandwidth :)
21:03 right now, we also get that for free
21:03 pikurasa What is the difference between a server and "the cloud" in this conversation?
21:03 Quozl pikurasa: cloud means someone else's server.
21:03 MrBIOS or sets of servers, really.
21:03 llaske do we need lot of bandwith? It's where stats on the current infrastructure could be interesting
21:04 Quozl pikurasa: at the moment, we have two physical servers at MIT campus which contain several virtual servers each.
21:04 pikurasa: we also have a virtual server at FSF campus.
21:04 MrBIOS llaske: “a lot” is a purely subjective thing.
21:04 Quozl pikurasa: by comparison, OLPC has five virtual servers at the MIT campus "cloud".
21:04 MrBIOS llaske:  we don’t have stats on bandwidth usage currently, but we may be able to collect some.
21:05 llaske We'll be great MrBIOS
21:05 Quozl pikurasa: and by MIT, mostly I mean the Media Lab at MIT.  Though I'm not real clear on that.
21:05 MrBIOS so, I have no problem moving to the cloud, but saying “I think we should just move everything to the cloud” without taking into account the amount of effort required, is a bit naive.
21:05 especially when you don’t have to do any of the work yourself.
21:05 pikurasa FSF has both servers in-house and they also use professional hosting space in downtown boston
21:06 samsongoddy A little off topic; but on issue of porting, maybe we should consider porting Sugar to snap(https://snapcraft.io/)
21:06 llaske MrBIOS +1 It's why we should starts by a study
21:06 MrBIOS llaske:  again, who is we? Are you offering to do it? :)
21:07 llaske I'm not able to do that, I'm more a developer than an IT guy
21:08 MrBIOS we should also wait to move to the cloud until we have the new entity sufficiently off the ground, such that it’s owned and paid for by that new entity
21:09 Quozl i'm not sure anyone even noticed the missing infrastructure apart from alex and myself.
21:09 MrBIOS Quozl: technically we are over on time, but I have no problem going over if others are fine with it and can stay.
21:09 Quozl MrBIOS: am aware, thanks.
21:09 MrBIOS Quozl:  we have plenty of access logs for ASLO to know that people would have noticed.
21:09 Quozl MrBIOS: but they did not reach out, why?
21:09 llaske I guessed you could be volunteer to do that because you said "I can do the actual migration"
21:09 MrBIOS Quozl: no, nobody did, they would have to know how to.
21:10 pikurasa It is a lot of effort to move data to another server, and sometimes the "other server" has different specs (and software) which have important implications.
21:10 Quozl MrBIOS: i think because they are used to it not working.
21:10 pikurasa So, I agree, a move would need to be studied.
21:10 needs to go.
21:10 Thank you!
21:10 Quozl thanks.
21:10 MrBIOS pikurasa: thanks, I will follow up with you with an address tomorrow once I get it
21:10 pikurasa MrBIOS: Please send the address when you have it.
21:10 Thanks!
21:11 bye
21:11 Quozl now that the first person has expressed a wish to go, let's close the meeting, all in favour?
21:11 samsongoddy +1
21:11 MrBIOS no, I want it to go on forever
21:11 pikurasa +1
21:11 pikurasa has quit IRC
21:11 Claudia +1
21:11 walterbender +1
21:11 llaske +1
21:11 Quozl +1
21:11 MrBIOS -999 (actually +1)
21:11 Quozl bye all.
21:11 #endmeeting
21:11 meeting Meeting ended Wed Sep 11 21:11:56 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
21:11 Claudia bye
21:12 meeting Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-11T19:59:37.html
21:12 walterbender thanks all
21:12 meeting Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]19-09-11T19:59:37
21:12 walterbender bye
21:12 Claudia has quit IRC
21:15 llaske has quit IRC
21:25 samsongoddy has quit IRC
21:44 llaske <llaske!~llaske@2a01cb00074daf0089493acabba​aa3d4.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:52 llaske has quit IRC
22:31 MrBIOS has quit IRC
22:35 satellit___ has quit IRC
22:35 satellit_ <satellit_!~satellit@2601:602:880:1907::c9f3> has joined #sugar-meeting

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